Chanel Porchia Albert 

I actually stopped doing doula training for a year. I was like, I’m not doing any more doula trainings. I don’t want to train nobody. I don’t want to do any of that. Because I felt like there’s like a revolving door of like you’re training, you’re training you’re training, okay, and outlet. Right. And I don’t want to keep putting more doulas out into the world and not being able to offer them a level of security, right or another pathway to be able to do this work because they you find that the, you know, the expectancy of doulas within the workforce, maybe like three years. You know what I mean? Because between burnout, right, we’re talking about finding joy and birth work, but like, you know, the trauma, the internalized trauma, just right, just life in general. And trying to find financial security, you know, will say somebody will say, okay, you know what, I can’t do this anymore.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Welcome to birthright, a podcast about joy and healing in black birth. Typically, we focus on stories of black birthing joy. But today for season two finale, I’m hosting a special episode focused on joy in black birth work. Where is it? What’s missing? And what will it take for black birth workers to reclaim their birthright? I’m excited to be joined by a group of rockstar black birth workers from across the country to lead this conversation. I could never do their full bios justice in a podcast episode. So please check the show notes for their full bios and all their flowers for these powerful people. But here they are. In a brief nutshell. Chanel Porchia Albert is the founder and chief operating officer of Ancient Song Doula Services, a reproductive health organization focused on providing resources and full spectrum doula services to women of color and marginalized communities throughout New York City and northern New Jersey. Chanel and Ancient Song’s work have been featured on CNN Champion for Change. The cover of Working Mother magazine, The New York Times, SELF magazine, Now This, and Vogue. When she is not working on legislative policy, or facilitating workshops, you can find her spending time with her six children. Welcome Chanel.

Chanel Porchia Albert 

Greetings everyone. I’m Chanel and representing New York City and New Jersey.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson is both a psychologist and a doula and advocate for human rights and childbirth. She is a member of the Black Women Birthing Justice collective and a movement partner with the Black Mamas Matter Alliance. She’s also co director of the frontline, doulas and Sankofa Birth Workers Collective in Southern California. Welcome Dr. Sayida. 

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson 

I’m Sayida, she, her pronouns and representing California.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Quatia Osorio is a Rhode Island native, born and raised and a doula. A Bryant University graduate, certified community health worker, certified lactation counselor, community birth and postpartum doula, maternal certified community health worker and certified childbirth educator. She founded and currently runs the Urban Perinatal Education Center and the Rhode Island Perinatal Doula Agency. She is the founder of Our Journ3i, LLC, a perinatal community led based wellness center focused on eliminating disparities for communities of color through maternal support, education, advocacy and awareness. Welcome Q.

Quatia Osorio 

Hi, I’m Quatia. I go by Q she her pronouns representing Providence, Rhode Island.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

All right, so let’s jump into it. So I’m going to ask you all as a round robin, starting with Chanel to Sayida to Q, if we had to take a pulse on the state of black joy in birth work now, one to 10, where are we? Real quick. Let’s go. One to 10. The state of joy in black birth. Where are we? Chanel, Sayida, Q.

Chanel Porchia Albert

I’m gonna give it a 7.

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson 

Hmm. It’s hard. I mean, I want to give it you know, a seven, just because Black Mamas Matter Alliance conferences. And so a bunch of birth workers were together and we’re feeling really good. But five, in general, particularly in California, as we’re really fighting a lot of fights right now, to do our work. So a five and a seven.

Quatia Osorio 

I’m gonna go with six to seven here in Rhode Island, just because I’m actually currently hosting a doula training and we are growing our numbers. We’ve reached our 300% and they’re excited and they’re happy. And yeah. 

Kimberly Seals Allers 

I want to pause and make a special introduction right now. A respected elder is among us. And I want us to create space for this. 

Linda Jones 

Hi, my name My name is Linda Jones. I’m co founder of Black Women Birthing Justice in Oakland, California. I’m a birth and postpartum doula. And I’ve been doing that for I think this I’m going into my 33rd year here the Bay. Long time, long time. Doesn’t seem that long, but it’s a long time.  My babies are now having babies. So I assume it’s a long time.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Linda Jones is a birth and postpartum doula photographer and mother of two, grandmother of four and great grandmother of four. She founded and owned Waddle and Swaddle Baby Boutique and Birth Resource Center in Berkeley, California, from 2000 to 2010, and is co-author of Battling Over Birth; Black Women and the Maternal Health Crisis in California. Mama Linda, we’ve been taking a quick pulse on the state of joy and black birth work. So on a scale of one to 10. Where would you say we are right now?

Linda Jones 

State of joy. I would say five, five. I think it’s five because I think this is joyous work. There’s no way of getting around that. For me. I think it’s joyous work. And you have to really love it to do it. But it’s hard. It’s hard right now. Black doulas are supposed to be the saviors right now. And I don’t think that’s a good position for us to be in even though we try very hard to attain that level. And policies in hospitals right now are pretty much negative toward doulas. Unless you find that one particular hospital that gets why we’re there. We have a long way to go to be accepted, respected for what we do. And I think that’s coming. But I think it’s a way off yet. And so I think five because I’m hopeful that it’s gonna get better. But I think where we are right now we’re joyous in what we do, but doing the work isn’t always so joyous.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Okay, so we’re not at a 10. Right, you know, we’re not at a 10. And so I want to talk about, you know, what’s missing in the field, and how we can get everyone to a 10. Chanel, what do you think is one of the key barriers that’s preventing the full, you know, 10 plus of joy for black birth workers in particular?

Chanel Porchia Albert 

I think the major thing is that we’re always consistently in this mode of having to respond to, and there’s always this level, this sense of urgency around everything, right. So everything that happens in regards to black maternal health, whether it be through, you know, talking about doula reimbursement, or you’re talking about a bill that just came up, or, you know, you’re, you know, someone has called you because some injustice has happened within a medical institution, or you’re trying to send a community because something is happening. So like, Yeah, I think that, you know, that’s one of the biggest things I know, even for me. There’s been moments where I’ve just tried to, like, sit still, or just enjoy rest. And it takes like at least two days just to be able to feel like you’re resting right. You’re supposed to be in a state of rest. See, you’re supposed to be relaxing. But it takes me at least two days to like be able to accept like, oh, I don’t have to answer your email. I don’t have to do this. I don’t have to respond to something. I don’t have to think about the next thing. And I could just be in this moment. And so there is a constant state of kind of anxiety, in a sense. So I think a lot of birth workers and people who are centering black maternal health are in that state. And so, like Dr. Sayida said, I mean, I’m filled with joy, because I just got to see be in a space like Black Mamas Matter Alliance, right? Saw you all right, I saw your beautiful faces we got I got to hug, you know and share moments of joy. So it was kind of like a family reunion. And that, you know, gives you a sense of rejuvenation, but it’s still, it’s a lot. It’s a lot to deal with.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

We got to dance. So that was also important for me. Dr. Sayida?

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson 

Yeah, some of us were on the dance floor until they turned the lights on. Yes, we got to dance. Oh, man. So you know, I think some of the things I think about a lot with birth workers, you know, I have these teams of community based doulas that I support all over in different places. And the narratives that I hear a lot, first of all, a lot of us are parenting, in the midst of, you know, the pandemic and the world changes. And so holding down our own homes and maintaining our own peace of mind, as we’re, you know, strategizing and navigating, often shifting changing scenarios, has been difficult, while also centering pretty much the most vulnerable people, you know, in community space, in the midst of an emergency in the midst of lots of mayhem, people don’t stop giving birth, the numbers don’t slow down the needs that people have the anxiety that they have that they need to be supported for, which often then turns to doulas and midwives and birth workers. So much of that pressure is like taken in as well, if I’m the one that’s here, and even like during the pandemic time, if your doctors not available, if they’re not even going to let you into the hospital until your baby’s almost out, well, I’m going to sit with you in the parking lot and labor with you in my car, since you didn’t have a car to get there. And I’m just like telling real example, the level of pressure that that takes to take on really disjointed system issues in the middle of crisis. So that reactiveness that Chanel was talking about really rings true for me as well. And I think, you know, there’s so much joy when you can savor the powerful ministry and passion and calling that birth work is which most of us came to it as. And when you’re in a space of reactivity in emergency, which is not sort of the natural space that birth work is meant to be and it’s not where the calling comes from, it really shifts your beingness like your ability to actually center your healing abilities to center the groundedness that you offer in a room so that somebody else can anchor into that groundedness for themselves and, and really facilitate their birth experience in a powerful way. It’s like a lot of shifting and moving parts. So I think, you know, the opportunity for us to rest, to rejuvenate, to recuperate, to have space, you know, between the movements. And for some people, they’ve never had a chance to do that in their lives. So a lot of that.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

So there’s a lot of talk about doula burnout that is happening after two years in many people’s perception. Mama Linda, was that always the thing?

Linda Jones

I’m sure it was you know, there’s lots of doulas that started when I did that didn’t carry it out. But many of the doulas I started with and this includes white women because that’s what I was working with, white doulas. They carried it out for quite a while, you know, and I think the difference really, Kimberly, is that when we started out because there were so few of us, we banded together, you know, we were each other’s support. And if we had attended a birth that was just totally traumatic, we always had someone that we could call and cry with and commiserate and have a drink with or just hold each other, you know, and say, Okay, you got through it. Everybody made it out alive barely. But you know, we had that support. I don’t see that happening quite so much anymore. And so I’m getting ready to do a training for some young women who have gone through a centering group, and they’re gonna go back and be doulas for that centering program. And I’m building into it that one that they have mentors for the first six months to help them learn the ropes, and then included in that also having a debrief after every birth with myself, and possibly the other doula that they were with but definitely with me and then a monthly get together of everybody. So that we, they have that, you know, to fall back on. You know this work is is very emotional. It’s heart work, it’s head work, it’s hard work. And if you’re gonna stay at it, you need to be able to learn how to have self care and to pace yourself and to take care of yourself during birth. But I feel that the support of mentors or just find other doula friend to commit to. You can’t hold all this by yourself. And the other thing is doulas, because they don’t make a lot of money per birth, they, they look and think, Okay, well, I’m getting $1,000 for each for so I need x number of 1000s of dollars per month to live. And so then they try to do 4, 5. 6 births a month, you can’t do that, that will burn you out in about one year. You know, you just can’t do that, you know, you’re gonna have to take other, you know, take full paid work, as well as do MediCal work. Because, you know, if you’re, you know, if you’ve had some experience in California, especially you can make, you know, the going rate now is like $3,000 a birth, you know, so maybe your first year, you’re not doing that, but maybe 2000. So you could do to $2,000 births and one MediCal birth, and then you’d be okay. And three births is pushing it, but you could do it. Um, my average was like two between two and four. I never really tried to go over that unless somebody fell early or late or something. And it was fine for me. I don’t feel like I’ve ever had burnout. You know, I don’t know, I think it’s I this is something that when I heard about it, and I started doing it, I thought I finally found out what I wanted to do when I grew up, that kind of thing. So I never really saw it as work. I just found it heart work that I loved doing. And so I truly believe that if you love what you do, you don’t have to worry about the money coming in. You don’t have to feel like you’re working. And so that’s been my philosophy. And Kim from day one, I said, I want to do this and I was making nothing to $200 of birth. I haven’t had to worry about money. For whatever reason, I don’t know if the universe says that. Okay, this is what you’re here to do. So we’re gonna make it happen. So, you know, and I, when I started, I had a five year old, you know, and so there’d be made times when I’d think the rents due next week, what am I gonna do you know, and then somebody would call me to have work, you know, and it worked. So I truly still live that way. And I get checks, I don’t even know what they’re for sometimes, but somebody’s paying me for something. And I just don’t worry about money, and I live very comfortably and you can do it. But I find that many, many young women or whoever’s doing this. When they when they look at this work, they see it. They think it’s a way that they can make money quickly, and it’s not that kind of work. And then they all burn out because they’re like, Oh man, I can’t make a living doing this. I can’t, you know, I’m not making enough money. And to me, I believe it’s because they worry about making the money too much. You know, I just think they need to be…I let go with some of that, and trust that, that the money will come. And it will, you know, so. But I think that’s a big cause of it is, is the burnout is not having enough support and trying to do too much, and not taking care of themselves.

Kimberly Seals Allers

Quatia, did you want to add your thoughts on what do you think is the biggest barrier to joy right now?

Quatia Osorio

Yes, I’m going to echo the sentiment of my fellow sisters here. I haven’t even celebrated the doula bill in Rhode Island. Because I mean, it was just as soon as we got the bill, I’m founding director of the Rhode Island Birth Workers Cooperative to make sure that we had a billing agency because this is not doula’s warehouse to do insurance. So knowing where we were going to be able to establish that was to make sure that we made something so the doulas could just do their work. A lot of it has also been protecting the scope of doula work in the state. And again, as Dr. Sayida said, You’re in this state where like, it’s on to the next thing, and then you’re on to the next thing, and then those moments of rest have been reactive. So I am a USDA registered black urban farmer. And so farming was my therapy and just being able to farm but the boundary really is where where do we have a place to go? Where’s our refuge? During these things? Who do we lean into? When it’s, you know, when it’s burdensome, who do we cry to? Who do we yell, get frustrated at? So one of the boundaries is creating a community, a network, a safe space, a doula for the doulas, a safe haven where we can come to so that we’re able, you know, to have those crying moments, to dry our eyes. And you know, just rather than you know, get up, shower, clean your face off and get ready for the next thing, I think that a lot of the work is creating networks and systems where you don’t have to be an all for one, you have partnership and community that you can rely on that’s reliable and relatable. And that gives permission for us to blossom and grow and to rest and sit back. And so that was something that I found joy in, in doing and finding that. And I also encourage that to the new doulas that I train, is you know, take moments of rest, enter when you’re ready, and take time and space when you need it.

Linda Jones

And so as far as birth work is concerned, it’s better. Because it’s more visible. It’s more accepted. We don’t explain every single time what we do. But as far as what’s going on in the institutions, I think that’s gotten worse. There weren’t there were not as many C sections. There were none of this ‘everybody gets an induction’ thing’. Back then women were still thought of to be capable of giving birth. I think now it’s a thing that they’re pretty much convincing young women of 36 which I feel is very young compared to where I am that they’re old. But so I think the fact that more people know about doulas now is a good thing. But all the interventions and stuff have escalated, you know, more than double. And that’s to me not a good thing. So yeah, I think that’s the biggest thing. I see that that they’re trying to tell people that they can’t give birth anymore. You know, nobody can go into labor. You know, if you do that, you have to have all this help. And then if the health doesn’t work. you need a C section, especially if you’re black. And that has totally increased, increased. But the positives are that there are a lot more black doulas in place to help with that situation.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

I want to just level set around the current narrative about doulas right now because I’m concerned and I want to hear what you all think around this lionizing of doulas, right. There’s this doulas are gonna save black birth. Everybody, you know, and I’m a little concerned. Just around that line. Between making sure that people understand the value of doulas and then people really understanding that the situation we’re in is not for doulas to solve right? It can’t be all on them. That’s just me. So I’m curious. And maybe Dr. Sayida, you can start us off. Where are we in this current narrative of the role of doulas, you know, the power of doulas. And what concerns you and what you know, where do you think we are in that balance?

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson 

Well, I think you know, to bring the concept. The reason why I think that narrative is so high right now is not just doulas in general, is because black doulas and black birth workers are on the scene. And in particular, when black women, which is the majority of the birth worker workforce, show up in a space where we’re amped. We’re ready to go. The lioness is hard in the energy. And so we come with power, solution, activism, intentionality, collectivity, sisterhood, like there’s a lot of energy that’s coming as solution, right. And I feel like that’s also like the legacy of the ancestors through us. So it shows up in the space like, oh, solution, right. And we do a lot when we take over spaces that have been corrupted, and people have been vulnerable. And we, you know, so I think people are truly seeing impact in the work that we do. And in the energy that we carry, when we’re in these meetings and activism, writing bills, I mean, we have shifted the landscape, and in that cultural shift, that Black Mamas Matter Alliance, and a lot of our organizations talk about is real. So that kind of, for me also goes into like that mammying concept. This idea of like, the black woman that can help and save all things for a person that’s like, so it goes into like some subconscious ideas, I think that white America has about things because I don’t think it’s just that doulas can save…like nobody’s thinking a whole bunch of white, doulas are going to save the black maternal health crisis. They’re thinking of black women and other people of color going into the community. And so while that’s powerful, it’s also then putting that narrative onto people who are the brunt of a historically racist system that has created an environment where we have these levels of disparities for millennia, right. And so I think in the birth work community, people are pushing back on that narrative, externally, like in conversations, but there’s also still that sense of urgency that we spoke about, about saving our sisters and saving ourselves and being a solution where we see a problem in our own communities and not waiting for somebody else to come. And so, but then a lot, you’ll hear birth workers say, I can’t, if a doctor decides to do an unnecessary induction, and then this leads off into a C section, no matter how much anchoring and advocacy and support that I give to this person, I can’t take over that power that they have or have been given by the family, by the system by the hospital, to make choices or to influence or to create, you know, coercive fear around this person, that I’ve only had a certain amount of months to shift where they’ve been given a narrative that this person is in authority, and trusting a system without having their own informed consent, and just without even a sense that birth is can be physiologically natural and positive and not with so much fear. So I think it’s a push, it’s a back and forth. I think it’s an internal struggle in birth work community. And I certainly think it’s an easy narrative for you know, media and you know, systems that are the ones creating systems that are inequitable to say that these folks that we have given no power to and we’re minimizing their access all the time are the Savior. It’s like a recipe for that not to work especially because once we get in there, a lot of the things that we know are helpful are also pushed back against, right? We’re not getting an open door for birth work to show up the way that we do. It’s like tokenized in a lot of ways. So it’s conflicting I think.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Okay, Q and then Chanel, please.

Quatia Osorio 

What I feel about the role of the doula is really to stay within scope as emotional and physical support and providing information care. I think one of the things that concerns me is this really broad stroke about doulas being able to do all of these things, we’re just going to swoop in with our super capes and just save all the black and brown people. And we really have to focus on what it is that we’re doing and how to best navigate our work and how we’re going to work with families. So for us and our doula bill, you know, every family deserves a doula and every doula deserves to be paid was our campaign. And we really focus on what is the scope and work of a doula. What can a doula do, what can’t a doula do. And a lot of times, we’re being propositioned now with our new legislation from people who really still don’t understand the scope of a doula we’re expected to take really high risk fragile clients on. And it’s really hard because our trainings do not really focus on high risk, medical assistance, substance exposed newborns, those are specialized trainings.

Chanel Porchia Albert 

I think just to veggie back off of what has been said, but also add in. While I am super excited about the ways in which we have centered the conversation and I say in centering black maternal health and lifting up doulas. While it is important. I will want to one just honor the folks that I know have been talking about this since I got into this work and who I learned it from. So I you know, I got into this work in 2008. And I learned about the infant and maternal mortality of of black women, by Mama Shafia Monroe. And it was through that and through a black midwife mamami san que that I really got a real grasp and understanding on what it was what we were truly up against, and that it wasn’t a new conversation that some folks have been talking about it since 1995. And then even prior to that, and for since 2008, like I had been having the conversation with folks and it was, you know, falling on what wasn’t falling on deaf ears, but it was only being heard by by certain folks. Right. So to see all of the conversation around doulas and encouragement, while I’m like really appreciative of it, I’m also very concerned about the exploitation and the commodification of the profession as a whole because what I have seen because of this popularity through the use of social media, because of activists and folks like ourselves, who have been on this mission for a very, very long time, it has created a loophole where folks have seen, okay, I can make one a quick dollar off of this, I can just train somebody to do something. And now they can provide a service. I also have seen transactional relationships in terms of systems, as well as within community where thereby I can get further ahead through what is just given to me, as opposed to really looking at the long term, sustainable impacts of like what these relationships mean further down the line. I’ve also seen the ways in which politicians have used the black maternal health lens, as well as doulas as a way to get reelected into office to push you know, initiatives to in order to placate a community that has been disenfranchised intentionally, for a very, very long time. And so again, while I’m very hopeful about the conversation in public spaces, I also say but let’s talk about the whole healthcare infrastructure as a whole. Let’s talk about if you’re talking about building up the perinatal workforce, what does that mean, then to create pathways for midwives? What does it mean to reeducate physicians that are providing care? What does it mean to have institutional policies that really center care community members, where community is active stakeholders within that policy transformation? So like to me, again, while I’m very hopeful, and I’m glad about the conversation, it hasn’t necessarily brought about the tangible change that needs to happen, especially as organizations where we rely on a particular infrastructure to be in place in order to create sustainability. So we find ourselves in these, these pockets of momentary change where you know, you have something, something passes, we’re really excited, we start the work, you start to see the things that may need to change. And then those things aren’t taken into account, because now they’re like, Well, we already gave you what you asked for, right? Um, also the financial pathways for organizations needs to be codified, it needs to like what do we talk about, instead of just saying, Okay, let’s have a delivery advertisement, that doesn’t include administrative costs, right for organizations to continue to run and function off themselves to pay billers so that you’re not taking from the doulas who are working in order for you to sustain yourself. Well, what does it mean for us to be written into the city, state and federal budget, right, where there’s a line item that says, you know, what, in order for these organizations to continue to sustain themselves, how about we make this a line where a portion of taxes goes to these community based organizations so that they can have a pathway to sustainability. And then they’re not having to consistently write an RFP for something, they’re not happening to consistently like, these larger consortiums. And these larger entities aren’t getting this vast amount of money. And then we have the trickle down effect within their subcontracting us in order to be able to do the work. And so that’s where a lot of that lack of joy comes from, because you always have to consistently try to find pathways to continue to sustain yourself, because you’re not being put in a position where it will, it’s still this this thing of hand to mouth, and I want to move away, I want us to really move away from the hand to mouth like, let’s look, because I’ve seen white organizations, right, and these other incidents of maternal health institutions, find ways to be able to do those things. And if you’re saying, oh, every person needs a doula in somebody’s campaign, because that’s what everybody’s saying. Everybody deserves to have a doula. Yes. And you need to make sure the infrastructure is in place so that you can have a doula, right, because you can’t go out in public and say everybody deserves a doula. And then the doulas don’t…the organization doesn’t have the capacity, thereby to provide a doula for someone. And then I have to tell you, I’m sorry, but we don’t have enough doulas. Right. And we don’t have enough doulas because you find that there’s a cycle of doulas. When you have an organization, you have doulas who come in, they get training, wonderful thing, they get trained, they want to get certified, some of them are going to pathway to go on their own. But if you can’t offer them a sustainable salary, if you can’t give them benefits, if you can’t give those them those things, that you’re gonna finally, yeah, they’re gonna go there, it’s gonna be consistent cycle where you’re gonna have a new turnover of doulas every six months. Right. And I’ve seen this over the years, right. And so, and again, you know, as someone who runs the organization, who, a lot of the things that I have learned, I have learned by going through the process, you know what I mean? And we’re always consistently, in moments of growth, we’re always consistent. I’m always trying to consistently find new ways to do things in order to create a level of sustainability for all of us. But again, that can’t be done if we’re always on the battlefield, trying to figure out the next step, because of the fact that this is the way the game has been set up. And so we need to change the trajectory of the way the game is established, and really look for other pathways. You know what it means that while I appreciate doing this, I’m a doula. You know what I mean, I don’t believe that doulas should be individual parents, I think that organizations should be the ones that are carrying that load, who provide oversight who provide accountability. You know, to me, it also provides a safety net to the doula, you know what I mean? So all so you don’t have to do all of that, all you can do is just do the work and you’re able to focus on that. And you don’t have to focus on a claim, is my claim gonna get processed? Is my claim gonna come through im full, in its entirety? Oh, do I have to wait six months to get paid? Right? We also need to think about like, what does it mean to create safety net funds? So that doula organizations, right? So that doula organizations don’t have to find themselves in the situation where they’re like, oh, wait, because of government contracts which a lot of people don’t know about and how government contracting works, where you oftentimes have to wait months for just the contract to be approved. They already want you to start the work, right. And then they’re like, oh, but we’ll pay you on the back end. So do the work, pay the doulas and we’ll pay you on the back end and wait for that invoice, right? And then you’re like, Well, wait a minute, but people want to get paid. A doula doesn’t want to hear like, Oh, you don’t have their money.  And again, a lot of community based institutions don’t have excuse me the infrastructure to be able to pay someone forward in a way that centers them. So again, we have to think about new and creative ways to be able to approach this, this the institutions, the system that is at play, and really focus on yes, there should be a doula for everybody, but also we need to make sure that the infrastructure is in place. So like, let’s make sure we have enough midwives. If everybody wants to talk about, oh, we don’t want anyone to have abortion access, and no abortions, well, then you got to have the necessary infrastructure in place to support parenting, you have to have the necessary infrastructure in place to support children and families. So you can’t say you want one thing, but then you’re not willing to give up the things that are necessary in order for folks to really lift up their communities in sustainable ways. And so and so those things have done everything to me. It’s just a political play and a force for this, this thing of like illusionary power that we want to and it’s also to placate, you know, a lot of us to get us to be quiet, especially the loudest ones who are within our respective states. Right. Let me give you certain Oh, Lord here she coming in. Let me give them something so that they can feel like they got some Um, you know what I mean? Oh, but then but by the way, you got to reapply in another year. Come on. That’s not real. That’s not helping anybody.

Kimberly Seals Allers

So I’d love to talk about this balance between the awareness of doulas, which we’re all working toward, I always get sad when I hear someone say, what is that they don’t know what a doula is. But you know, the real goal of more respect of doulas as well. So, historically, Mama Linda, where do you think we are in terms of more awareness? But yet no respect? What are your thoughts?

Linda Jones 

I mean, there were many times when, you know, you almost didn’t tell them that you were a doula. We just said, This is my friend, I’m coming with her. And, you know, and went that route. I know that when I started out, working, I volunteered with an organization. And we did birth for young black women and uninsured women and stuff. And so they knew who kind of who we were, and accepted us for that. But I mean, outside of that, it was a little harder, was a little harder. And I think they weren’t seeing as many low income or black people supported by doulas. And of course, because no black people, either they didn’t know, or if they had heard of it, it was like, Oh, that’s a white person’s thing. You know, white people do that. And I’m pretty sure that I could count on maybe one hand, the first 25 years of my doing this the black people, I support it, because they just didn’t do it. Until all this headlines started coming out about how they were being killed in the hospital. And people were like, wait a minute, how I keep from dying from just having my baby. And then they started researching and finding out about us. But before that, it wasn’t a thing in the black community. And to be transparent. Most of the work I did for the first 20-25 years was supporting, you know, women who were not women of color, because they were the ones who knew about it, and they were the ones who could afford it. And so unless you were doing volunteer work, and I always tried to do one or two a year, you weren’t supporting, you know, people of color, it just wasn’t a thing.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

Did you know that less than 15 minutes of your time can help make black birth safer for us all? Irth as in the word birth, but we dropped the b for bias, is the first of its kind nonprofit rating and recommendation platform for black and brown women and birthing people to find and leave reviews of their OBGYNs, birthing hospitals and pediatricians. My name is Kimberly Seals Allers, and I created the Irth app because I wish I had it when I gave birth. I learned the hard way that reading the doctor and hospital reviews at mainstream sites, which were overwhelmingly from white parents, was just not helpful to me as a black single mother at the time. Irth is by us and for us. In less than 15 minutes, you can complete the structured review of your birthing experience. Also, tell us about your prenatal, postpartum, and newborn care, so we can inform and protect each other. We turn Irth anonymous reviews into meaningful data to work directly with hospitals, payers and providers to improve our care now. When it comes to safe, respectful and dignified care, we got us. Download the free Irth app now and leave your reviews. Follow @TheIrthApp on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. 

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Wow, so many issues on one hand, lionizing doulas. What the reality is that even though studies have proven the positive impact doulas have and that their awareness is growing. Not everybody who wants a doula can currently access one right? There are many reasons for this. But one of the big reasons is cost. Not all insurance carriers cover the cost of doulas. And so people have to pay out of pocket and that is what has caused the divide that doulas became a privilege for those who could afford it, which made them the you know, the choice of many upper class white women predominantly and other women of color who had money to access them. And so recently, there have been a host of attempts to get this to get doula reimbursement, correct, including doula reimbursement for Medicaid. Now, much of it started out completely wrong and quite frankly, disrespectful with reimbursement levels of $300 and $500. Which, you know, when I was gonna mention, but things are improving, right now, the reality is, it’s hard to be joyful. When you’re not being paid for work that is tiring and traumatizing. Those two just don’t go together. Q you had a major leadership role. And the recent job reimbursement bill that was passed in Rhode Island, which many people feel represents a great standard and starting point for others. Can you tell us more about that bill?

Quatia Osorio 

So the Rhode Island Reimbursement Doula Act here passed in 2021. And it’s a bill that really focuses on the doula provider workforce. So here we passed two bills, that doula bill for Medicaid and also doula for private insurance commercial. In our state, we are a fee for service at $1,500 $100 per pre and post and then $900 for the birth. It’s 3,1,3. And one of the requirements is you must become a certified perinatal doula, which is different from a traditional doula in our state. And so you can still operate as a regular traditional doula out of pocket. But in order for you to receive reimbursement, you must be a certified perinatal doula going through a renowned certifying board, getting that and then you apply to Rhode Island Medicaid and apply directly to the private insurers in order to become a network with them. Another thing is a requirement that you must be a Rhode Island resident, and if you’re not a Rhode Island resident, then over 51% of your births have to be in the state of Rhode Island. This is not a doulas regular wheelhouse, right? Like we don’t bill insurance. We don’t do claims. And so, me and a couple of my other colleagues that worked with me on the doula bill, we decided to come together and found the Rhode Island Birth Worker Cooperative. We chose to do a cooperative because we wanted to maintain democracy and ethics and birth justice and make sure that we will promote equal access and equality but also a necessary service for doulas. And so the Rhode Island Birth Worker Cooperative is a doula owned and doula led shared billing agency in which all doulas participate, and they’re able to work with a biller. We put our claims in, our biller takes care of that, and then we individually will receive a direct deposit into the bank account. So there is no like major check that goes to an organization Rhode Island is actually not an organization or doula agency state. The way we operate is very much individual, which we know is a little different than other states that have large organizations that like having the workforce here. It’s just one individual doula provider.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Okay, well, let’s go from a small state to a big state. Dr. Sayida, what’s going on in California?

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson 

In California, we had a bill, SB65, that passed that encouraged the payment of doulas throughout the MediCal Medicaid system in California. It actually was pushed through by the governor, which puts it into a different category than just a bill being passed. Because, as we’ve been, you know, on the grassroots level, trying to understand all these highfalutin legislative concepts and systems of bureaucracy, if it goes through the bill process, it’s meant to actually suffice for all the things that were in the bill right. So it has to be like go for toe to toe what was there? I can’t say people’s intentions and I don’t know anything about you know, it seemed exciting that the governor just put money on it and gave it to California as this is going to go through MediCal and not just wait for a legislative full on process to complete it. But it put it into a category where we actually seem to have to fight for each part of the things that we had all co written and consulted around the way that the bill should be written for the things that should be there. And so, we are currently in an active conversation with our Department of DHCS. I can’t even remember what the acronym is. But it’s a department that manages MediCal in our state. And so we have a table of, you know, community doula stakeholders that come to the table with the department. And as they are now like implementing this bill, or this concept, we’re fighting tooth and nail everything that we always knew needed to be in it, as well as trying to make sure they even understand what doulas do. So we’re in a situation where we’re needing to sell basic concepts that birth workers know exist around the way that we work with people. So for instance, if you know, the low reimbursement rates that MediCal has, in general for all providers, doesn’t create a lot of equity. If, let’s say you’re going to do a postpartum visit for a person that has, you know, a significant need for postpartum that’s typically going to be longer than an hour visit, longer than maybe a two hour visit. A lot of postpartum doulas do overnight visits, they’re there for extended amounts of time, they’re coming back multiple times. We’re fighting for the way that reimbursement can occur to make sense of the way that we actually work, right? There’s like this specific rate for birth. So we’re like, hey, you know that birth is not just like a specific timeframe. So this person could be in labor, and childbirth for 12 hours, or 18, or 24. Or like, as is common practice these days, even longer than that because of a lot of interventions and complications that have been coming up. So we can only bill for this specific amount, no matter how long they work. Do you understand what that would mean? Like all the nurses, the hospital staff, everybody’s going to have rotated three times and it’s doulas it’s going to still be there. Now, mind you, in private practice. Many doulas do that, right. And they’re there for the consistency of the birth. But there is a pay that’s connected to that. And there’s an intentionality about the way that they work. Or, for instance, they may just do, if they’re just a birth doula, you know, one or two prenatals, you know, a simple postpartum and really focus on that childbirth experience, and that’s where their time and money is spent. But in this bill, you really can only get right now we’re at one $1,154 or so, if you were to build the maximum that they’re allowing, which is eight prenatals or postpartum visits and a birth. So that’s a lot of activity that has to happen for you to make less than almost all of the California Community doula pilots have been paying doulas right now. And so it’s just really complicated. There’s also a question on the table around the same thing that was talked about this billing, the complications of billing, it was initially written into the bill that administrative costs would have to be a part of it, because how can you want to lift up the community based doula work that’s been done? Right. We’re talking about people that go into homes of people that typically do not have money to pay for a doula. So this is not the classic doula experience that’s happening, where you’re pulling from the community based doulas that are already working. You’re not pulling from California doulas that are out there, you know. So this is an entirely different workforce that’s been working. But the community doula workforce has been working and our organizations have received funding to support the doulas and the support is tooth and nail. I know Chanel knows. I mean, Q has talked about it. Mentorship is real people are inverse calling their mentors we are having case conceptualization is black woman birth justice created a black birth worker forum just so that we could help be available for the community based doulas and doulas that are out there working in these streets with no support and no support around other aspects that they’re not necessarily supposed to know per se as a doula around mental health, which is why as a psychologist, I stay in this work really heavily because the doulas are out there on the frontlines with people with high levels of stress, even if they don’t have you know diagnosable mental illness. They need support for how to help people navigate social systems, right? People with, you know, decades long of childbirth education experience and birth experience between the midwives and doulas longtime workers, they need those people to give advice for how to manage themselves even deal with the vicarious trauma for themselves and manage scenarios that they would have never had as you’re training up this new cohort of doulas. So you know, our deep concern, and it’s great, you know, we’re moving forward with it. I know, we know where we’re trying to take the win where we can to, because at the end of the day, you know, I fight with myself, and we all have from the beginning, none of us thought, Oh, this is salvation, have Medicaid and medical cover doulas, like none of us thought that that was an answer. However, in California, in particular 80% of the black population has medical. So if we don’t actually get a way for people that are the majority of the population birthing to have access to doulas in a mass produced way where the government is paying for it, not where I’ve got to fight with philanthropists and people to give me coins to be able to, you know, individual organization that needs to be a government effort. Because this problem is a government level systems level issue. There’s no support for that. And that is like mind blowing, that people think that all the work that we’ve done to get this benefit out to have people be paid and doulas be paid by the systems that we ever thought they were just going to throw money at them, make them work harder than they have to do even in our organizations. And we won’t have the means to support them. And nobody sees the value or the need for that that wasn’t written in as well. Of course, you’d have to have infrastructure and support for our workforce to go out and save people that the world is killing, or allowing to die at higher rates than anybody in the world sees. So again, the need that we have is so great. And this idea that a doula by themselves without the infrastructure to support them. And without an infrastructure to support birthing people. It’s madness. Like, it’s like, we’re all here in the streets trying to make this work. Because we know that if I could get 100,000 people to doula who would have never had it, I know that it’s gonna make a difference. But it could really make a real difference If that doula is supported. It can really make a real difference if the climate of birthing was more accessible to ways that people to have better outcomes. So you know, conflicting thoughts on all levels in California.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Right, so they have to have the infrastructure to support them got it. Chanel, what’s going on in our neck of the woods here in New York and New Jersey.

Chanel Porchia Albert 

Okay, so I want us to be really clear that when we talk about a number, we need to be talking about specific types of doulas. And I think that that’s really important. We’re not just talking about the regular traditional doula who’s doing just two prenatals you go into a birth and you’re doing two postpartum or one postpartum. So I would say anywhere between $1,500 to $2,000 for reimbursement, and that is for a certain amount of prenatals. And so I will say at minimum, you’re doing five, right? Because again, we’re talking about folks who are on Medicaid, they may be living within the intersections of like housing insecurity, food insecurity, thinking about all the things right, and as community based doulas, you’re having conversations around that, you’re understanding that it’s not just about the episode of pregnancy, but it’s also about making sure that their social factors are being addressed, in order for them to center themselves and their pregnancy. We’re also thinking about postpartum and I believe that postpartum has been something that has consistently been overlooked. There’s been this thing about reimbursement for both birth doula services, but not the postpartum period. Right. And we understand that some of the greatest risks happen with pregnancy related complications that are happening during the postpartum period. And I was like Sayida, like we just worried about, again, like it goes back to this thing where, you know, you’re thinking about centering the fetus and you’re not centering the person who needs to take care of and carry said fetus after that now fetus is earthside. And so, you know, what does it mean to also bill separately for postpartum care? Because not everybody’s coming in for birth doula services, and a lot of the bills have just primarily been focused on that. And so really shifting that language to incorporate a full spectrum of postpartum care services that go beyond two visits. So I would say at least six to eight, um, as well as bringing for continuity of care, because we know that the first year of life is one of the most critical. And so what does it mean for like, those checkup visits that three months or six months or 12 months, right, and being able to incorporate that into the fee schedule, as well as abortion care services, given the fact that, especially if you’re saying that you’re a full spectrum, community based doula and you’re assisting someone throughout their reproductive life course, what does it mean for doulas to be able to support post op care, post op care is just like postpartum care. Right? And so folks needs to be able to know that they can be supportive, because, you know, with the ways in which people are now having to travel over state lines, I know within New York, New York City in particular, you know, there’s an estimate that 300,000 People are going to be coming to get services. Well, those same people are going to leave. Right? And so then how do they there’s no, there’s no follow up care. Right. And so what does it mean for someone to like have follow up right to be centered in your follow up care, and have the necessary resources in place where if a, you know, doulas are trained in particular for that specific area, then they can do that. So we want to just make sure that there’s a specific understanding of the designation of doulas and one of those things that we had in our Advancing Birth Justice Report is clearly defining that and what that can look like, or what that does look like. And then in terms of the landscape of New York, and in New Jersey, New York, there was a pilot that was put out, we did not. So upstate Erie County, they went along with it, the reimbursement was only $600. Downstate New York City, we fought against it and continue to fight against it. It’s not equitable, the reimbursement claims. Even the folks up there, the claims are not being processed in their entirety, or they have to wait a long period of time. And we were never for, we were always opposed to that fee schedule. And so we consistently at this time now, you know, it’s being revisited with the New York Coalition for Doula Access, which is a group or montage of like various different, you know, individual groups, others, folks from other states who are weighing in. And as well as just you know, there’s a couple of bills that are present in regards to like doula registries, which, you know, we’ve always been very vocal about. So, we’re speaking to our representatives about those in New Jersey. Doula legislation has passed, the reimbursement is at between $1500 and $1900, for high risk people, though. And so yeah, so in the designation of someone who’s high risk is considered to be teens. Yeah. And then it goes, and then it’ll go down for somebody who’s over. So if you’re over, if you’re over a particular age, if you’re over the age of, I believe, 19, then you’re considered to be lower risk. If you’re under the age of 19. I didn’t. This was before I had time to weigh in on it. And so the apparently has been in place, but there’s been a lot of doulas having problems with just being able to register and go through the process. Because not only do you have to register with state Medicaid, you also have to register with every single MCO. Yes, and people don’t know that every single last one of every every single MCO you have to register with and they also have their own processes that you have to go through.

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson 

And is anybody paying for that to help people register? Yes. See this. I’m talking about how you gonna create something that nobody knows how to use the whole system.

Chanel Porchia Albert 

Right. And they did have classes here, but still, it’s not an easy thing to go through, you know. And so at one point there was out of like, I think about 300 doulas that were trained, because they did this whole city this whole statewide doula training. Only like one doula was able to complete the whole entire process. At one point, that number has risen. But in speaking to doulas, they are having problems with like reimbursement claims are being denied. Claims are only being paid out and are partial or less than half. One doula says to me that they had done about four births, and only one claim was processed, and it was at the rate of $250. So like, right, you know what I mean? And also like, and this is why I also say that I don’t believe that individual doulas should be payers in the process because a lot of times doulas come into this work and they want to be able to look at this as a way to move from whatever realm they are in currently in the workforce and make this your full time job. Right. And think that sometimes that this is going to be the thing that’s going to lead to that. And that’s not the case, because Medicaid doesn’t pay the way it hasn’t. It doesn’t pay midwives the way it should. And if you’re not a huge infrastructure, such as like a hospital or a large clinic, where they’re doing, where they have a rotation of seeing 50 patients in a day, they’re only spending 10 minutes with everyone, right? It’s a consistent revolving door, and you have so many patients coming in that if you have to wait six months for a claim, that’s not a problem, right, then that’s fine. But for someone that average doula is only going to take on what, maybe one a month, if that, right, because the rest you need to get paid immediately. You know what I mean? So we have to think realistically about the ways in which it actually operates. And this is why I say it needs to be housed within an organization. And so right now in New Jersey, we just got funding from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And we’ve started the New Jersey Bert Justice Institute, which is a year long program that’s aimed at not just looking at community based doulas, but also parents, grandparents, those who are advocates, within the space of New Jersey, throughout the whole state. We have 25 participants. We were able to take them to Black Mamas Matter conference. We also are paying them. And as they learn, and the goal is to really ground them in reproductive health policy, what does it mean from beginning to end? What does it mean to incorporate that within institutions? What does it mean, as a parent, as a grandparent, as a birth worker, you know, to really lift up these frameworks to center our communities in equitable ways, because in New Jersey, you know, as progressive as it wants to be, it’s very conservative. It’s a very, very conservative state. And a lot of, you know, we’re managed by three health consortiums here. The health consortiums have a monopoly on reproductive health care. They’re all led by white women, there are no black women who are in positions of power in terms of like, oh, like, complete oversight, um, and it’s become highly problematic. And so a lot of the community based organizations can not necessarily speak to what’s going on, because they’re also getting government funding, you know, what I mean, or the way that they want to, you know, what I mean? So you got to think about that. So, as an opportunity, we’re not connected to any kind of government funding where we’re completely independent. So we have an opportunity to, and our hope is to really like shift the course of the ways in which people are able to access reproductive health care services here in New Jersey. So it’s not about just putting out doulas and I actually stopped doing doula training for a year. I was like, I’m not doing anymore doula trainings. I don’t want to train nobody. I don’t want to do any of that. Because I felt like there’s like a revolving door of like, you’re training, you’re training, you’re training, okay. And outlet. Right. And I don’t want to keep putting more doulas out into the world and not being able to offer them a level of security, right or another pathway to be able to do this work because they you find that the you know, the expectancy of doula within the workforce, maybe like three years. You know what I mean? Because between burnout, right, we’re talking about finding joy in birth work, but like, you know, Q said earlier, you know, the trauma, the internalized trauma, just right, just life in general. And trying to find financial security, you know, somebody will say, okay, you know what, I can’t do this anymore. You know what I mean? So like, how are we being also intentional, intentional about like, just not putting people out there just to put folks out there because they want to be trained as doulas, but also being able to like, offer them a level of security. It’s Um, since so that when they do the work, they can feel like okay if I want to do this for a couple of years and I’ve also talked to do this and I’m you know, and I always have, but what does it mean to just not be a doula and like, like to be a doula, but to understand that within being a doula, you’re so much more like, you can be a consultant, you can be a researcher, you can focus on policy, you know, you can focus on let it you know, you can focus on the legislation, you can focus so many different pathways. You know, like even for myself, I’m a consultant you know, I’m our work our reproductive health policy, I teach those things. It is not just about and I did that because when I was at bedside, I was like, women, I have no power and control here. And while I love the interpersonal interaction that happens among folks, well, what how Okay, there needs to be system level change. So what does that mean? Oh, you know what? Now I teach med students now um, you know, I’m in med schools now. I like teaching nurses and incoming midwives and things of that nature. You know, now we partner with you know, we have a hospital base do a community based doula program that just started about it’s been in inception now for about a year and a half at Elmhurst Hospital in Queens, where we’re being, we were very intentional about the ways in which we went into that hospital. Right, and what that meant for safeguarding the doulas who were going to be in there, but also the providers from anyone who comes as a touch point for somebody who’s pregnant, to understand the role of the doula and what it means for us to really have collaborative care and doing this work. And so, um, yeah, it’s a consistent, you know, I think, as I do this work, and I’m, apparently I’m starting to be an elder in his work. Somebody was like, Oh, my God, you’re one of the elders and I was like I am? Wait a minute child. I’m only in my 40s what you mean. I just started. I ain’t been doing it that long. 

Kimberly Seals Allers 

You just moved into Auntie. You moved into Auntie, not elder auntie.

Chanel Porchia Albert 

I’ll be okay. I could be the auntie. I could be the auntie. But I was like, elder whoo, we movin too fast. Um, but as someone who’s been doing the work for a long time, you know, like, I’m consistently growing, I’m consistently learning in this work as well. And, you know, really wanting to center a framework that’s really centered in grace, that centered in hope, that centered in joy, that’s centered in like love and sheer appreciation of the folks that I know that are consistently doing this work every single day, you know, like Q like, Dr. Sayida, you know what I mean? Like, who are trying to create pathways, and I learned from them. You know what I mean? Like, I love to be on a conversation. I’m like, oh, that’s what you’re doing? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. So like, let’s see how we could do this. Like, you know what I mean, like, let’s see if we can do this together.  And one of the things that Ancient Song was intentional about earlier this summer, was bringing together folks, you know, birth workers in organizations from all across the United States. And we had a convening of about 30 birth workers, doula organizations, we are going to have another one this fall, where folks who weren’t invited the first time can come in, and that’s to get a full spectrum idea of okay, what does doula Medicaid reimbursement really mean? And what is this? What like, what are the conversations that we’re having, because I have a conversation here, you having a conversation here, the only times we usually have a conversation together sometimes when somebody has asked us to come in, and weigh in on something, and then we learned about what the other person is doing? So like, let’s have an in sync conversation, right? So that we all are on the same page, we’re all talking the same language. We’re all like, really uplifting the same frameworks. 

Kimberly Seals Allers 

This has been such a powerful discussion that could obviously go on and on and needs to go on for another hour, but we don’t have that kind of time here today. But suffice to say there’s still so much work to do. I have so much work to do. You know, I’ve been saying on our Irth app social media platforms that everyone is talking about doulas, but nobody’s talking about the actual doulas and we have to change that. We have to actually start caring about those that we expect to take care of black birth. I encourage everyone to download the Irth app and read about our New York City Irth ambassador program, and how we are taking care of those taking care of black birth. And while you’re there, if you are a doula, please leave a doula review of births you have attended, so that we can inform and protect each other. In the meantime, if we care about joy and black birth work, we must care about doulas beyond saying that they’re needed, beyond singing their praises to making sure that they are supported, paid and have the infrastructure support that they’re not being sent into oppressive work systems. But they are in places that are supportive and welcoming. And making sure that first and foremost, we as a community value doulas and demand that others do so to…you all as black birth workers. And as black people also have a birthright. I close every episode by asking that question. I want to pose it to you all today. So you can name it and claim it. Dr. Sayida, what is our birthright?

Dr. Sayida Peprah-Wilson 

Our birthright is to have the space to birth at the highest level of our own capacity, but the deepest sense of safety and peace, and certainly not in a climate that feels in any way antagonizing or suppressing that it just feels supportive just to birth in a completely supportive space.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Q, What is our birthright?

Quatia Osorio 

I think our birthright is to find hope, and love and joy and freedom and the ability to be in our emotions fully. Because I feel oftentimes as black women, we get robbed of rage, and anger and frustration and being annoyed. Our birthright is to be in community with friends and family and to have what we deserve and to be able to receive it to live to come and to go to move through love in all of its entirety. Because I feel like some people don’t even know what love is and how encompassing it can really be. To be able to hold space for one another and not judge to be able to hold space and our faults. To just be able to come up to another person and open yourself up for a hug, to receive a hug and to give a hug. And you don’t have to ask for anything in return. To just be able to say I love you and not expect someone to say I love you back because what you’re giving is just so free and so full. I think that’s my birthright. I think my birthright is to love free and audaciously and unapologetically, and to be able to operate in all facets of me authentically

Linda Jones 

What is our birthright? I feel our birthright, especially when it comes to birth and giving birth and being with people who are birthing is that it’s the birth justice thing. It’s we have a right to say when we want to have a baby. Say when we wouldn’t want to keep the baby that we have at the way we want to have it. And then we get to raise it in a safe manner. I just feel that that’s due to everyone. I don’t care who you are. And there’s so many things right now trying to stand in the way of that, you know, from the Supreme Court to the hospitals. And I don’t know. I just feel like I keep saying that. Humans can only live for about 100 some or so years, because by that time we we’ve seen so much that we’re just like, I’m done. I can’t just pick any 100 year period. And it’s like, oh, no, they’re going to a place where I guess kick. I can’t go with them. You know, but that’s kind of where we are now. It’s like you just look around it. The world we’re living in right now. And it’s kind of a weird place. It’s weird. It’s scary. People are living in fear. If you’re black, you can’t do anything without fearing for your life. And that’s not, that should not be our birthright that should not, you know, fear should not be our birthright. You know, safety and joy should be our birthright. And I don’t know how we get back to that Kimberly but we got to try really hard.

Chanel Porchia Albert

And I would say our birthright is the right to be seen, to be heard. And to be genuinely cared for. And to have our humanity centered, right in an affirming way so that we can affirm future generations because how we choose to center birthing people in the experience of giving childbirth has a long lasting impact because as I say, postpartum is forever. And so as we’re going through that those various different iterations of postpartum, having the right to do that, in affirming ways that centers hope in love and peace, and your identity and your culture and your people and your community. It’s your birthright.

Kimberly Seals Allers

Every black birth worker comes to this work with their joy, with their love of birth, with their commitment to birthing families, and their love for the journey of motherhood. Joy is also their birthright.

Season Two of Birthright is funded by the California Health Care Foundation and the Commonwealth Fund. Birthright is produced by Motor City Woman Studios in Detroit with Kimberly Seals Allers as executive producer, and Alexa Imani Spencer as researcher and assistant producer. Our music is by Dantrel Robinson and we dedicate this season in his memory. And don’t forget to subscribe to Birthright wherever you get your podcasts. Give us a rating and review if you like what you hear. Find episode notes and learn more at www.BirthrightPodcast.com. And don’t forget to like and follow the Birthright podcast YouTube page for exclusive videos and extras. Follow at @iAmKSealsAllers on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and please support our Patreon account. Together, we are reclaiming our birthright, one story at a time.