Kimberly Seals Allers  

Welcome the Birthright, a podcast about joy and healing in black birth, where we share positive birth stories of those who have lived out their birthright and help heal those who have been denied it. My name is Kimberly Seals Allers, and I’m the founder of the Irth app, and your host. This is where we celebrate the ways we find joy in our birthing experiences. And ultimately, reclaim our birthright.

Today’s episode is about love, joy and even pain. We’ll meet an amazing couple–two intense planners—who talk candidly about the joys of their first pregnancy and birth at a childbirth center and their struggles with a mistimed second pregnancy. Finding joy in black birth is not always about the perfect plan but sometimes about the having the right team on the path to acceptance. 

Deidre Washington  

My name is Deidre Washington. I’m the mother of two girls, Luna and Malia, and this is my birthright story.

Mike Washington  

My name’s Mike Washington. Father of two beautiful, amazing, very very rambunctious little girls and husband to my amazing wife, Deidre. So, at that moment, you know, when she was born, you know, that became my priority. I was like, we’re gonna build a relationship together, you know, I’m gonna be open to the things that you, you know, that you’re gonna go through. And most importantly, I’m gonna be accountable to you, you know what I mean? I wouldn’t say I’m a guarded individual, but I’m a principled individual. And at that day, I realized that some of my principals had to go, you know what I mean? And because I couldn’t be who I wanted to be for her if I was still standing on some old things that influenced me, you know what I mean? So I said, Let’s tear this stuff down. And with me, me and this little baby, We’re going to build this together. You know what I mean? No, Mama, no, Gigi, No, papa, this is me. We’re gonna build this together, you know what I mean? And it was just, it was just looking at her was like, wow, you’re here. You know what I mean? Like, I can’t believe it, you know, and it was rough. I mean, it was rough and tough at the same time, because she looked so much like me, I was like, Hey, little person, like, you know, we twinnin’ a little bit, you know what I mean? So, and, you know, and just wanting to be there all the time. You know, I mean, I know you asked about the initial day, but just those you know, I’m glad that who I was working with at that time had the amount of leave that they provided because I was a father and still am a father that just wants to do the work like, if y’all and scared y’all want somebody laying in bed with you, I’m up, let’s go. Let’s do it. You know what I mean? Who’s got to go to the bathroom? Let’s go, let’s go, let’s go. And I just wanted that establish that, you know, you could count on Daddy like, before you even knew it, you know what I mean? And I don’t want to be, I don’t want to be on the outside of none of it, you know, to me, and let me even if I’m uncomfortable with it, I don’t want to be on the outside with it. So that’s what I knew, in terms of like my principles, and what the level of accountability I wanted to have with my daughter.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

And what was it like for you to see your beloved D transition to a mother?

Mike Washington  

I always knew D was gonna be a good mom, just from the sense of how loving and like bubbly she was, and everything like that. So I think it was at the embassy level, super easy. Like D was prepared from like, day one and everything like that ready to go, knew how to hold the baby and everything like that. But definitely, like, on day one, that was already an extension of who she was, you know what I mean, at the time. So we already had saw so many glimpses of it, and how she cares for anybody that’s around. 

Kimberly Seals Allers  

Welcome Deidre. So tell us what, as you recall your birth experience, what made it joyful for you?

Deidre Washington  

The joy of my birth story is the fact that when I did what I felt was right for myself, I felt supported. And I felt in control. Not in a sense of control, like I was trying to control everybody. But I felt like I knew what all my options were. And I was able to make decisions based on my knowledge and support from the people around me. So that was, that just brought me so much joy, because I saw what it could have been for me if I continued the care that I was in. So I started out in care of an OB. And just to rewind, my first baby was a godsend, she was perfectly planned out and everything that we wanted, right when we said, we wanted to try for a baby, we got a baby. 

Kimberly Seals Allers  

Mike take us back to the day that you found out Deidre was pregnant.

Mike Washington  

I mean, those things are burned into my brain. And I hope I’ll never forget, you know, it was in a sense that we, like I said, that first birth experience and trying to get pregnant, we were trying so, you know, for lack of better words, we’re having a good time. You know, what I mean, trying to have a baby. And then when it happened, I remember we were home and it was a little late, she took a pregnancy test, and it was positive. And then we did what most folks do we call up our parents and you know, here and who is Gigi and now Mimi now get really excited about, you know, their journey and into you know, being grandparents and everything like that, that that was magical. I mean, that was probably the day I became my mom’s you know, second favorite person, you know. I knew I got eclipse that day. Like I’ve never seen that excited before. We had graduations, birthdays, but that’s the new noise right there. So it was good to have that experience with her. And it was a really like a like a big family moment and everything like that. So it was amazing. It was amazing.

Deidre Washington

I was in the care of an OB. And I remember my very first appointment, I walked into the office, and you know, the receptionist was nice enough, the doctor seemed pleasant, but it was just like, kind of a weird and awkward situation, like I got up on the table. And she’s like, Alright, we’re going to do an exam. And I’m just like, whoa, what’s happening? There’s really not much conversation beforehand, or like, you know, any rapport building. So I remember looking at my husband, and just being like, this is not it. So when I did do my due diligence and researched my birth centers in my area, I was able to set up a tour at one of the local birth centers, and talk to the office manager. She got all of my questions answered, and we started care. So originally, I wanted to have a home birth. After that experience with the OB, I wanted to, like be completely out of that system, and be at home and my husband was just not down with it. He was like, Heck, no, we’re going to the hospital, we need all the things. If something goes wrong, we need doctors and instruments and all of that kind of stuff. And I knew that wasn’t a good fit for me. I knew that I was healthy. And I had knowledge about a little bit about birth, there was definitely a gap and I needed more education. But I just knew that that wasn’t right for me. 

So when I made the decision to set up the appointment, and go see the midwife and just see the birthing center and get all of our questions answered, My husband was sold, I was immediately sold and the care I received was just top notch. And I felt supported and listened to and heard. I remember going to each of my appointments, and my midwives would greet me with a hug, which is not something that you get in the care of an OB it’s kind of just like, in and out, you’re a number type of deal. So that was so much joy for me, just the experience of pregnancy.

Mike Washington  

I’m an analytical person in terms of I’m trying to understand the data understand, you know, what are the best practices and leading practices on things. So I really had to educate myself. And I had to unlearn a lot of things. Because I went in there with the mentality of what we see on TV, traditional hospital birth, and the route that my wife and I chose, you know, was not that traditional route. So it was going to the birthing classes, it was reading stuff on, looking at stuff on YouTube, reading online articles, and realizing and being honest with myself that my first intuition wasn’t the correct one, because it was something given to me. I didn’t earn it. I didn’t put any time into it. I just accepted what the world and society had given to me at that time. So what I was able to do was kind of reshape it based off of my learning, and just going through the classes with D and really understanding Oh, wow, no, this is the best approach. Now there were some things that I had to have for myself, like, you know, what’s contingency planning and everything like that. And as I was going through that process, I really knew my place in it. Because, you know, the readings help you understand how you need to be supportive, you know, what your partner is going through at that time, you know, we had a plan that we had talked about, and our life was in a position to where it was really just focused in on on that birth experience. So it was easier to do at that point.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

First of all, I love all black man with a contingency plan. So shout out to all the black men who have contingency plans. We need more of that. Thank you so much, Mike, for modeling good behavior. So, in your learning, I do understand that there was one area that you were still like, I don’t know about that. Talk to me about the idea of a homebirth. What scared you? 

Mike Washington  

Yeah, you know, we had a close friend of ours, a couple that had a home birth, and had a great experience with it. And it was just for me there. If you think of it like two poles, you know what I mean? Like a positive and the negative, like in terms of polarity, I was looking at, hey, having a hospital birth, having a home birth, like, these were the two different sides that we were talking about. So essentially, you know, finding that middle ground of having it at a birthing center was an easy place to kind of come to, I wasn’t necessarily comfortable about how easily we could get in and out of the house and, you know, moved if something were to happen, what the setup would be. That to me was just, I never got the comfort level with it. And if you know, I don’t know if I’ll ever have a comfort level with it or anything like that, for those who do it, you know, shout outs to them for their bravery, and, you know, their willingness to do so. And I think it is magical because even having a child in the birthing center, that fact that you’re able to take your baby home with you that night. So just imagine that entire birthing place and that that whole experience happening under your roof. I could see how magical it is. You know what I mean? I definitely see the upside with it. But going back to having a contingency plan It just like the cost benefit of it was just like, we can do it here have exactly the experience that you’re looking, from a birth perspective, and be surrounded by medical personnel and everything like that and knowledgeable folks, versus where we’re just trying to do it with maybe one or two. So to me, I couldn’t just I couldn’t get there, you know what I mean?

Kimberly Seals Allers 

No, that’s real. So cost benefit analysis, contingency plans, and, you know, lots of analytics. Tell us a little bit about, like, what field are you in? Your life, you know.

Mike Washington  05:51

Yeah, it’s kind of my life. I’m in management consulting. And, you know, I advise clients on like, best practices, I’ve been in the pharma field for closing in on 15 years now. So like, it’s a very regulated industry. So, you know, precise, being precise, and providing folks with really good recommendations on how they should be doing their manufacturing process and engineering quality, and then their systems. Yeah, that’s what I do on a daily basis. And it’s applicable to what I wanted from a birth approach. AndI think that’s true on anyone, it you have to be yourself going into these, into birth, and, you know, being honest and transparent with your partner. What are your lived experiences going into it? And be vulnerable to say, Hey, I’m nervous about this, because I’m scared. And then ask yourself why you are scared? Oh, because you don’t know. You know what I mean? And if you don’t know, try to find out, and if it’s another reason where, you know, it’s like, Oh, something just doesn’t feel right and everything like that, explore that feeling. You know what I mean? And I don’t know what if it’s so much of my profession that helps me understand that. I mean, like, how, how it speaks to me and the language that I use, all my profession, you know what I mean? But my feelings and stuff like that, that’s just innate, you know, what I mean, to who I am.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

And so I think that a lot of people think of, you know, childbirth centers, and midwives as a bit fringe. You know, it’s like, you know, what are we doing here? Are these for the granola and the tree hugger people? You know, tell us a little bit about, you know, your journey to accepting that and how you viewed it, perhaps even before you did your own research?

Deidre Washington  

Absolutely. That’s a really great question. So I’ve embraced the crunchy mom appeal. And it’s funny that you say that because like literally the birth center is in the woods. It’s like this wood cabin type place. But just even before then, I think that my journey to just finding more natural ways of living life was kind of my MO for a while. I remember even like finding natural ways to deal with menstrual cramps instead of just taking Advil. That was kind of the start of it. When I cut my hair and went natural, I think that was also adding to that. That kind of story of just getting back to nature, I just feel really good when I don’t need a lot of things, I look to myself and think of myself as a minimalist, and I love that about myself, I don’t need a lot of stuff to be happy or feel supported and things like that. So yeah, and just watching birth stories, all different types of birth stories on the Learning Channel.  A Baby Story was like something I would watch every day after college, or after class in college, and just seeing all the various variations of how women can give birth. And it was always very interesting to me, this idea of unassisted birth or, you know, not a lot of interventions and things like that. And then going down the rabbit hole of seeing what interventions can do and what they, like, the effects that they can have on the body. Professionally, I’m a lactation consultant. So I know now the effects of how we give birth and our pregnancy on the way breastfeeding goes. So that was really, truly important to me to be able to breastfeed my baby. So I wanted to kind of get all of those things out of the way that could inhibit or provide obstacles in the way.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

I love that. I mean, I wonder if you could tell us more about midwifery care. I think people talk a lot about the moment of birth and the pushing and who delivers. No, we don’t use that word anymore — who catches babies? But, let’s talk about the midwifery model of care. What do you recall about how many visits you had? And what they were like? And what can you share about that part of the experience? 

Deidre Washington  

Yeah, sure. So the midwifery model, the care, like the medical part, like when when I go to my appointments, I still got bloodwork done. You know, I give a urine sample every time and they’re checking for protein and things of that nature, I get my blood pressure, my weight checked and everything, like just how you would get in an OB office. There is more emphasis on education of birth. So in the state of Florida, if you give birth out of hospital, it’s a requirement by law to have a certain amount of hours of childbirth education. So that was a huge part. It’s not that I you know, just show up to this place and give birth. It’s a lot of information that’s given in the appointments. My midwife is talking to me about my nutrition, she’s talking to me about mental health. She asks me, you know, what’s the plan and who’s my support system? Even, I remember because it was like, it’s a group of midwives, there was four in the group. So I would have appointments with, you know, each of them throughout my, throughout my pregnancy.  And I remember one of them asking, like, So how was your relationship with your mother in law and things like that, like, are you going to feel happy and supported, if she’s there with you, you know, is she going to try to take over the baby? Just like things like that, like, setting me up, even postpartum of what, you know, the healthiest and ideal situation would be for me, I remember having some anxiety about like, who’s going to be in the room, and I felt bad, and I wanted everyone to be there. But like, I really didn’t. So she really coached me through you need to do what you feel is right for you. Like, if you’re making noises during your labor, you want to be free to do that and not have a little voice in the back of your head saying like, Oh my god that’s too loud. Or, you know, that’s a weird noise and just take away from the experience and being in the moment of giving birth and pushing or going through your contractions. I gave birth with both of my babies in the tub. And that was just such a phenomenal experience for me. And my midwife even said like, I know that you want to have a water birth, but you’ve got to listen to your body and in that moment, feel what you think is right. And just kind of the like when I’m in labor. I’m like closing my eyes remembering just like, it wasn’t a lot of things that she was telling me to do. I was going through my waves and surges. And, you know, she was just there supporting. And I remember like, nobody in the room was like scared or, you know, had like this look on their face of worry or anything. It was just everyone was really relaxed. And it was normal. Like I remember, like, feeling good about how I felt. 

Kimberly Seals Allers 

I want to talk about that language of waves and surges, because that is a taught language. Right. And so you say waves and surges, but everyone else would say pains and contractions. Talk to me about where that language comes from, who taught that to you? And why do you think that’s an important reframing for all of us?

Deidre Washington  

Absolutely, yes, that is definitely taught language, the normal languages, like you said, pain, contractions, you know, terror, or all of those things. So I learned them in my childbirth education classes that we had to take. And, like, literally, the way she explained it was that it’s like a wave. It starts low, and then it gradually goes up, and then it comes back down. It’s not like this constant pain that is unbearable, that you can’t stand. It’s like, I remember her saying, like, if you can, like you can do anything for 90 seconds. That was one of my little affirmations to myself, I’m getting goosebumps now. You can do anything for 90 seconds. And just breathing and remembering those waves ride the wave, don’t fight the wave.  Because having the mindset of, you know, this is getting my baby closer, it’s pushing my baby dow. My baby, my body is doing everything that it’s supposed to do. And going into it thinking about that just makes more sense. Like, I remember, even my husband was with me during those classes and would be coaching me like, you know, she’s almost here, like, that was a big one, that was a good one, she’s getting even closer. And, you know, I’m not like, you have the tendency to kind of tense up. But having that reminder of just like letting go and like opening your body and things like that. Those words still ring true to me, like even when it’s not related to birth. So it’s definitely taught language. And I think it’s important to kind of change that narrative of pain and contractions.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting, the ways that fear and pain and fear of pain has been used literally over time to control and limit how women birth in this country. Deidre, I want you to take us back to the day that your baby was born. You know, what did it feel like for you? Take us through every moment when you were starting to realize that this was it. And you were in labor, and then your birth?

Deidre Washington  

Yeah. It’s a really funny story. So with my first, with Luna, I had been just like messing around with my husband. I would just be like, Oh my God, it’s time like, I think I did it twice like the boy who cried wolf. And he would like, stop and pause and be like, Okay, what are we going to do? And I’ll be like, just kidding. So when the time actually came…

Kimberly Seals Allers  

I’m actually feeling for your husband right now.

Deidre Washington  

Oh, my God. So when it actually happened, he did not believe me. I’m standing in the kitchen making tuna like I’m chopping up the eggs and doing a tuna salad for us for lunch. And mind you like just to rewind, I gave birth at 41 and like two or something. So I was overdue. I was like, completely done with being pregnant. I’m like, almost at the point where I’m like, take me to the hospital and get this baby out of me because I’m tired. And this, this hurts, I’m big. Anyways, so I’m making tuna. And I feel like this pop like it was weird. And then like a trickle of fluid. I’m like, Oh my God. Like I didn’t say it out loud. Just because I felt like I knew he wouldn’t believe me. So I go to the bathroom and I’m like, Mike, I think something’s happening. Like, I’m like, water’s coming out, but I’m not peeing. And he comes in there and he’s like, okay, okay, okay. And he calls the midwife and just lets her know what’s going on. And I’m super excited. Like, finally, my water broke right then I lost my mucus plug. And it was game on from there. My sister was upstairs, I think she was on a phone call, she had come into town, because it was getting close. And he went upstairs and got my sister, we got all of our stuff in the car.  And I’m like, I call my mom let her know what’s going on she, she was in a different city in Jacksonville. But she…No, I’m sorry, my sister, we called my older sister. And so she hops on the road to get to where we are. And I just remember, like it, it got real really quickly. So it was all fun and games, water broke, mucus plug. And then it was just like really intense. You know, waves and surges back to back, I was like, This is crazy. Like, is this what supposed to be happening and you know, my husband being the sound mind that he is just reminding me all the stuff that we learned. So we finally get in the car. Well, before then my midwife is talking to us and telling me to eat snacks to get into the shower, to do our move, sit on the ball, like do all of our birth stuff. And then we finally get in the car and go. And I remember telling my midwife that I don’t want to know, number one what time it is. And I don’t want to know how far along I am, like how many centimeters like the information just keep away from me. Because in my mind, I just didn’t want to feel like oh my god, it’s been three hours and I’m only three centimeters, I just wanted to go through everything just in the moment. It was very, very intense. They don’t call it labor for for any reason. It is hard work. Your body does a lot. And being coached through like one thing that was important to me was being able to eat throughout my labor and like keep up my energy, I didn’t want to run out of gas.  So I’m eating oranges, where, you know, they’re feeding me little snacks, I can’t even remember. And then I got to a point where I’m like, I can’t eat, like, I feel like I’m gonna throw up or like poop on myself or whatever. I remember being in a certain position, just like on hands and knees and rocking my hips back and forth. And that is the only thing that could keep me comfortable. And just like, you know, doing the deep moans and childbirth education, we’re taught to, like do low registered tones, instead of like screaming on the higher register. So I remember, just like that feeling of the bass in my chest, and in my throat was really wild. And it was time to get into the tub. I was like I’m ready. She’s getting close, I can feel it. And the urge to push is just like an incredible thing. So going through your waves and surges is one thing and like, you know, they’re coming back to back and then when you get the urge to push, it’s just so rewarding. It’s like, almost like feels good. Like I’m doing something to help with these surges. So the urge to push came and there is no denying that urge. So when I hear women that have had the epidural and are told to push I’m just like, it doesn’t register in my mind about like, you know, having to be coached through that because if somebody was like no don’t push I’d be like get out of my face there’s there’s no way we’re stopping this train. So the urge to push was great. And I remember her head coming out. You know if you’ve never learned about a water birth, a baby being underwater isn’t inhaling water or anything like that or can drown. It’s when they come to the surface and that exposure of air is what makes them breathe air. So she came out her head was there we had to wait for another contraction. And I just remember this big like monstrous like energy inside of me. I have no idea who this person is like it was almost felt separate from me. Like it was an out of body experience. And her body came out and she floated to the top and they, you know, we put her on my chest and I just remember the huge feeling of relief. You know, it was like, Oh my God, my baby, but I was like, oh my god, it’s over, thank God.  And it’s immediate, like you feel immediately better. And she was on my chest, and oh my god, I feel like I’m gonna cry. And I remember she just had all the vernix and all the stuff on her and I didn’t care. I just kissed her, she had so much hair. And we saw that in like all of the sonograms and everything. So just to actually see her was incredible. She was a big baby nine pounds one ounce at birth. And, yeah, they drained the water out, I sat in the tub, we wait for contractions, again, to deliver the placenta. And I can’t remember, like after that, it kind of gets jumbled up between the first and the second baby because I remember I had to like sit in the tub for a long time, I was like, I gotta get out of here. So they like baby’s still attached to placenta, they like helped me out of the tub into the bed and everything. So after that, the rest is history. I got my baby. And, you know, just the aftercare was really good. My baby never left my side. All of the exams and procedures were done right there on my chest. So really, really good experience.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

Wow, that’s so beautiful. You know, what do you think? When we think about how more black birthing people can find joy in their experiences? Do you think that the main part of it for you was that you were not in a hospital setting? Was it your mindset? What do you think really contributed to this experience for you?

Deidre Washington  

Yeah, I don’t think that if I continued with my OB, I would have experienced as much joy as I did. Just because I didn’t in the OB’s care. I did not feel like you know, Deidre, and I, you know, with my first baby, and that you cared for me, you and you loved me kind of deal. And I really felt like I needed that. Not necessarily hand holding, because I have a great support system. But you know, just the fact that I wasn’t scared of anything. Everything was explained to me or, you know, I sought out the information by myself. That nobody was telling me what I should or shouldn’t do. It was more of a guidance kind of situation. In my work, I talk with a lot of mothers and I hear birth stories every single day at work. And this notion of, you know, I couldn’t or the doctor told me that this and that. They didn’t let me like, I never wanted to have those words exit my lips, and they didn’t. So I think that yeah, I received the highest amount of joy and the care that I decided to go with, for sure. And that’s me personally, because I just felt like I could do it. Some people, it’s not for you.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

Right, right. That is very true. That is very true. And they do not believe that it’s for them. Right. But something changed with your second pregnancy that impacted the joy for you and your husband. Can you tell us about it?

Deidre Washington  

So my we got pregnant the second time. Our first, Luna, she was 15 months old, so totally a surprise baby. We were not planning to get pregnant that soon. But here we are. And I just remembered, kind of my husband and I, we like cried together, we felt so bad for, like, almost like feeling irresponsible, because the first was still a baby. I was still breastfeeding her. And we kind of like, we felt like we were taking her childhood away in that moment. That’s how we felt like, Oh my God, how can we do this, like, almost felt like we were in high school, like, what are we going to do?  

Mike Washington 

Whoever you believe in as far as a Creator and everything like that, I think a lot of times one of the I would say probably one of the more average prayers that’s out there as for growth opportunities, and that’s exactly what number two presented for us. She was not planned. And in that sense the first thought I had was of Luna because she was so young. And I didn’t want to rob her of being the baby, I thought she earned that. She deserved that. And then with the new baby, what that will look like. Was she ready to be a big sister, because me and my sister we’re six years apart. So you know what I mean? I didn’t have that idea that you should grow up as closely with your child. And then just from a provider standpoint, where was I, where were we, you know, at a point to be able to, you know, afford a second child and, and provide the life that we want, like, you know, I mean, I, my friends joke all the time, but I was like, I don’t want to be taking sandwiches to Disney World, you know what I mean? Like, that’s not what I want you know what I mean like, I want the package, I want the tour guide and everything like that I want my kids to have, you know, something very, very nice for themselves and everything like that. So I was like, well, am I going to be able to provide that, you know, with the kids being so close together? Am I going to be able to afford college with the kids being so close together. And at that moment for me, I had to really let go, that was the biggest thing I had to learn with the second one and everything like that, where the first one was, I wouldn’t say structured but definitely planned for and everything like that had to let go. And then at the time of my life, I was traveling a ton for work, you know what I mean? On client sites. So it wasn’t the same experience where I was home every single day with the first one, you know, you know, I’m at a Marriott and D’s super pregnant, dealing with a toddler, walking a dog and everything like that. There’s no level of sympathy I was emotionally able to even display at that time, or support or anything like that. I just, you know, I was in a mode of we’re just doing what we have to do. And it wasn’t the best time you know what I mean, in terms of between me and her but we got through it. 

Kimberly Seals Allers  

The truth is, About half of U.S. pregnancies—more than three million each year—are unintended, which includes mistimed. By age 45, more than half of all U.S. women will have had an unintended pregnancy. I am one of those U.S. women and Mike & Deidra’s story is not that uncommon. But that doesn’t change its impact. 

Deidre Washington  22:44

I think that experience just on my end was very challenging just because all I had to compare it to was the first one. And it wasn’t like this perfect, magical thing and that it took me a long time to let go and just to accept what we were going through and that you know, I can still be a good mom to both babies. So I think that was a big thing. I was like how, you know, I just got the hang of one now I got to do this for two. It was it was difficult for me to wrap my mind around. So definitely came to terms and I think that our support level that we have just helped me. Again the women around me said that I didn’t have to do it by myself and that they’re here and you know,  our Auntie game is very strong here. So that makes all the world of difference. 

And at that time, my husband had just gotten into a new job. And he was traveling four to five days out of the week. So Luna, and I were just at home kind of rocking by ourselves. It was almost like a single parent situation, not really, but you know, the day to day was on me. And then all of a sudden, I’m pregnant. And that fatigue hits. And, you know, I’m still breastfeeding, like I said, and, you know, I couldn’t come home from work and take a nap and things like that I had to take care of a toddler. So it was different to the pregnancy was different in that fact, just because I had more to do. But the birth experience was really, really great again, a few differences was, I was attending most of my midwifery appointments alone, whereas before with our first we both went to every single appointment.

And just having a fear almost at the end of the pregnancy that oh my god, it can be potential that I go into labor and have to do this by myself without my husband. So at that point, I decided it’s important for me to have a doula like, I just need that experience. With our first I interviewed a doula. She was great. But I just felt like we didn’t really need her at that time. But the second time around, totally needed a doula just for support and like spiritual support emotionally. I did have I feel like I was never diagnosed but like depression a little bit. And I think it was related to the fatigue that I was experiencing. And just the fact that it wasn’t this like perfect planned out pregnancy that we had, you know, hoped for. Not that we didn’t hope for her, but she just came faster than we expected. And that rings true to my baby girl Malia even to this day, like, even though it’s not what we expect. It’s her and she’s still amazing and beautiful. So yeah, doula was there. My midwife had me with the second baby just like doing so much more movement.  So movement during labor is life like, and I think that was like a huge difference with the second as well. She came so fast like, my water broke. And literally two hours later, I’m in the birthing center pushing and my babies here. Yeah, so she, she wasted no time to get here. After the fact, when I was chatting with a midwife, I was like, how far along was or how dilated was I? When I walked in? She was like, you’re at nine walking in the door. So there was that and really good.

 

Kimberly Seals Allers 

You were ready to go. You were ready to go. So, you know, I appreciate your your candor around how we enter pregnancy, right. And it’s not always going to be like the commercials where everybody’s jumping up and down when they see the pregnancy tests. And you know, sometimes it takes folks a minute to get there. But we’ll always we, we hopefully do get there. And then, you know, I found having been in that situation myself that you know, your children are always a blessing, right? And how they come is how they come. And I think there’s a lot of folks who struggle to find joy, because of the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy. Can you share anything about what helped you kind of get there? And what helped you and your husband kind of get there? Around, you know, something being unexpected, a beautiful blessing, but perhaps not at the right time? 

Deidre Washington

Yeah, so I think that’s a great question, Kimberly. And, like, I didn’t know the answer to that immediately. Like, it took a lot of reflecting back. Because I’m such a planner. You know, before, I always say, before I had children, I was a type A personality. Now, you know, it’s nothing for me to just like, sit in a very messy house. Whereas before, that was not true. But how I found joy and acceptance, I think my friends and family helped me so much with that, like, our mindset at that time was like, Oh, my God, we’re taking your childhood away, and we’re gonna bring another baby, you’re going to be a big sister. And my friends and family helped me reframe that to know she’s going to have a best friend. And this is the best gift that you can give your daughter and they’re going to grow up together. And just, they’re a little less than two years apart. They’re like, 23 and a half months apart.  So, you know, just knowing that was one of the ways that helped us come around, like, yeah, you know, you’re right there, they’re going to be really close and just besties. With the second, with Malia, we did not find out the gender. So we went the entire pregnancy, not knowing. We kept all the clothes from Luna, just in case, it was a girl. And, you know, they love each other so much like I could, I could cry just thinking about when they’re hugging each other and loving on each other. And then they turn around and they’re fighting. So it did work out the way that people explained it to me.

Kimberly Seals Allers  

I think also a lot of black men may struggle with that, right? So if there’s anybody a, you know, a black man who’s about to become a father, perhaps not in the best circumstances, perhaps unexpected, perhaps concerned about providing, you know, what would you say to him?

Mike Washington  

There’s a lot of good books around it on how to do so. And just realize that it’s not helping you in that situation, you know what I mean? And, and if you’re being honest with yourself, and you’re concerned about being able to provide, remember what providing is about…is about the other people like I’m trying to provide a better life for my daughters and my wife. So why am I concerned about how I want to provide? You know what I mean? I should be the other way around. Hey, how do you want me to provide for you? So essentially, you can’t be thinking in terms of always financial, or let me pick this up. You know, my wife would tell me all the time, 90% of the time, I just want you to hug me. Like a hug? Is this what we’re really talking about? Uh, but that’s what she wants, you know what I mean? So don’t be afraid to check your ego and provide that hug.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Yeah, I think that in society, we often and you know, across the board, we define fathers by financial contributions alone, right, you can do everything for your kid. But if you don’t pay, then you would be considered a deadbeat. Right. And so, you know, and I have written about this, like the difference between the, you know, campaign the won’t pay, because we know the realities for a lot of black men, you know, economically in our system, and that we perhaps need to think about other, you know, metrics for providing, like, what else could that be? Yeah, what else could that be that you providing? And I appreciate what you’re saying, asking that other person, because that person may be like, listen, money, okay, we got that we’ll figure that out. But what I needed to provide is emotional support.

Mike Washington 

And you don’t I mean, this as hard as you will go and work a double shift, or do some overtime and everything like that. Put the same thing in emotional support, because it’s harder, like I am horrible at providing emotional support. So it’s, well, I mean, I’m not as good at it as the other thing. So let me just put it that way.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

I love that. I love that. I think that reframing, you know, and having others who support you in that reframing is so key. I want to ask you briefly because of what you do, around this bridge and the connection between the joy of birth and joy of breastfeeding. We both love breastfeeding as an important issue, as an important public health issue in our community. So what do you see in that? I mean, just from your own experience, but also with your clients and in your work? Like, what is that connection? Because I feel like people these are often put into silos and sometimes childbirth education doesn’t even include the breastfeeding classes separate and like how what what is that connection as you see it?

Deidre Washington

That I mean, they go hand in hand, you you don’t really have one without the other. It’s important to know that whether you decide to breastfeed or not your body is going to do what it’s supposed to do. So I, when I’m talking to one of my clients, and they’re like, you know, I don’t want to breastfeed I…and just a little background on me, I worked for the WIC program. For a many number of years. I just transitioned out this year, but part of their service with it is breastfeeding education. So as the nutritionist, I would ask them about breastfeeding, what do you feel? And the ones that said, No, I don’t want to breastfeed, we still have to talk about breast milk and how you’re going to manage, you know the milk that your body is going to make. So how you give birth can sometimes directly affect how the early days of breastfeeding going are going. So the more interventions that are in place during your labor and delivery of your baby can create obstacles with, with the baby.  So if you have a lot of birth drugs, your baby can be very sleepy and not want to latch you know, those very same birth drugs affect the mom interventions like a C section can delay milk being generated. So and it’s not impossible, it’s not saying if you have a C section that you can’t breastfeed is just, you know, another thing that your body has to recover from. You know, if you have major surgery, your body is going to be concerned with healing the incision, as well as making milk. So, you know, one or both of those things can be inhibited, or slow down. And just the way you feel about how your birth went, makes a difference on how breastfeeding goes. So if you felt joy and supported, and now your baby’s here, and you’re putting your baby to breast, you’re gonna feel better about that than if you were mistreated, if it was traumatizing, if you know all of these negative things happen to you, it can affect how you feel about your baby coming to your breast, or, you know, even just the pain levels that you experience. And not saying that breastfeeding should be painful. But if you are experiencing, like, let’s say, an a latch issue, though, the experience you had during your birth, will sometimes directly be affected by how baby comes to the breast or pain that you might feel at your nipples and things like that. 

Kimberly Seals Allers  

Also even treatment like you’ve been, if you’ve had a negative experience with nurses, or the doctor or the OB and your labor and delivery, you come to the other side, anyone who approaches you from that hospital, you will give them the side eye because you’ve just been traumatized, by the way staff treated you before. And these, you know, these experiences can impact your willingness to accept help and how people approach you and whether you want anybody touching your body, you know, and so these two experiences are so connected. And you know, it’s a really important thing that we don’t look at them as two disconnected parts of the same thing. And I’m curious, you know, even in your WIC experience, we’ve seen a lot of Mamas who are simply choosing to formula feed, and do not even want to try right. And so what have you found is often the reason for that, is it that they perhaps I mean, we know some folks may have some trauma, you know, some folks may just not be able, these are all understandable. And but within the realm of possibility. What do you find are some of the reasons why particularly black women don’t want to breastfeed?

Deidre Washington  

A lot of the time, it is lack of information that they’re getting, or conflicting information that, oh, whether you breastfeed or bottle feed formula, you know, your baby is healthy. And that can totally be true. But we’re not, they’re not being told, like the vital reasons of why they should give their baby their milk. A lot does have to do with trauma, if somebody was assaulted or molested as a child, having a baby at your breast brings back those feelings of trauma. So, like understanding that about somebody, it’s not just like, if somebody says that you don’t want to breastfeed, I’m not like, Oh, you don’t want to breastfeed like, you know, I don’t write them off or judge them in any way. You know, if they’re willing to share, I want to know, like, Maybe is there a reason? Or is there something that you’re missing?  Sometimes it’s I don’t want to breastfeed, and that’s fine. A lot of times in the black families, they’ve never saw anybody breastfeed. So it’s, it’s not normal for them to want to decide to put their baby to the breast or, you know, give them breast milk. So, a lot of the times, I will just, you know, empower that mom and say, You can be an ambassador for the family, you can be the first one that does it, to show everybody else and show the next generations that this is possible. And then, I think a lot of black women don’t want to because this idea of baby’s going to be too attached and I’ve got to get back to work. So I think that’s why I’ve found. In respect your work so much as we’re talking about that being like one of the major barriers, the lack of, you know, maternal leave that we get in this country, because you know, having a baby does, and it can put more financial strain on the family. So if you’ve got to breastfeed and your employer is, you know, giving you pushback about having the pump while you’re there, you’re not going to want to continue to breastfeed or even start in the first place. So, you know, that’s, that’s the work and I love the work that you do to change that. And then, you know, there’s multiple reasons why black families don’t choose to do so. And I think it’s important to just show that black people do breastfeed, we are the ones that fed this country, were the beginners of the world. And that’s how we’ve always fed babies. 

This is a podcast about birth stories, but i want to wrap us up with a love story. Mike and Deidra tell us about how you met and when you fell in love. 

Mike Washington

Um, yeah, I met D like, I’m sure you sure your listeners and everybody would guess in physics class, you know what I mean? And I had audited the class prior, you know what I mean? Because I knew that it may be a little bit difficult or something like that. I just, you know, I had time and I knew that class was going on at that time. So I had a really good understanding of the material going into the class. So I’m, like most folks my age and that time in my life, I’m just sitting in the back of the classroom with a hoodie on just, you know, I know what the instructor is gonna say. So I’m just mouthing everything. And D was like, she came up to me at the class. She’s like, Hey, you seem like you really know this stuff. You were kind of mouthing what the teacher was saying I was like, Yeah, I got a pretty good understanding of it. She was like, Hey, do you want to study sometime? I was like, Sure, cool. You know what I mean? I was like, it’d be great. Because at that time, I wasn’t that discipline to have really good study habits to actually do it. You know what I mean?

So I was like, perfect. You know, we’ll hang out study and everything like that. And then through that process and getting to know D, she’s like, way different than anybody I had met, like, the amount of outgoing that she is, and how bubbly her personality was. It really attracted me. So I was just honest, what I was like, Look, I’m not trying to be your friend, I really lik you, you know what I mean? And, you know, D was like, she was somewhat receptive of it, but not as much. But I mean, eventually, you hang around me long enough, you either gonna find out really soon, whether you like me or you don’t. So she made that and she went with it. And we have really been kicking it ever since. And I will say the moment that we probably fell in love is just when… And I think for most folks, you start mirroring one another, I had really started accepting the things that of who she was and brought them in and made them me. And I realized how much it was making me a better person. I was like, Oh, I can’t lose that. You know what I mean? Like, that’s really important. And I knew, in terms of what that meant to her was like, you know, she’s like, Okay, I definitely want to be married. And I was like, Sure. And like, in the sense that not understanding that at that point, I was a little bit nervous, because I wasn’t quite sure about what kind of provider I would be at that time. And, you know, I was a little bit hesitant. But just like anything, you got to take that chance. And we did and so far, so good.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Y’all about to make me cry. Um, I’m a sucker for black love. I’m a sucker for black love. D I want to ask you a question, if you don’t mind. When was the day and the time when you realized that you wanted to make babies with this man?

Deidre Washington 

Really, when I met his family and where he came from, it was very similar to mine, just really on the surface, just he comes from two parents, stable home, they believe in education and just moving forward in life and things like that. And I that’s something that I always wanted for myself. And we just had fun together. He was always down to do like, fun, different crazy stuff, like in the beginning, laying on the roof, looking at the stars, or going canoeing, so I was like, okay, so he can rock with me. And I don’t know, I think I saw him really one time with one of our friends. How interactive he was with, with a young, young kid. And it just like melted my heart I remember was Caleb and and I was just like, that looks really good on you. I was like we could do this probably.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

But what is it that you want for your children and your children’s children?

Deidre Washington

That is a deep question. I want them to just move through the world without limits, right? Even something like the first thing that popped into my mind, I remember when I was younger is black girls can’t wear blue eyeshadow that was like this thing, or black girls can’t wear red lipstick, something like that, like putting them into boxes, I do not want them to feel like that. I want them to you know, try anything that sparks their interest, whether my daughter said that she wants to be a truck driver, and I’m like, Alright, baby, let’s drive trucks, you can at least try it. Or you can be a an owner of a trucking company or something. And I think just in this, I felt like we’re in a revolution black people are, and I’m so happy to be having babies and young children at this age, because there’s so much representation on what is possible. Mommy’s a business owner, and, you know, I work hard, but I’m also present for my kids.  So I want them to see that and to, you know, digested and use it in whatever way is beneficial for them. You know, I think the common thing is just like living life with no limits, because there’s so many limits put on us as black people and then especially as black women. When I when I was when I found out I was pregnant with a girl the first time like, I remember how heavy my heart felt at the gender reveal, because I swore I was going to be a boy mom, you know, and raise little kings. So when we found out it was a girl, it was just like, very heavy and almost daunting because like I’m a woman and I know what it takes to move in this world. And to have to raise up somebody that has to endure what I have to endure what we have to endure. It can be very heavy. So you know as as they’re getting older, I’m just like, I want to have that heaviness removed from them. I want them to be free and to feel like they can do anything.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Deidra and Mike, I close every episode by asking, what is our birthright? 

Deidre Washington

Our birthright is to live right? So when we think of it as just like the basic thing is women to like live through their delivery of their baby to like be alive because a lot of black women are dying. And it’s it’s too much and it should change. So like at the very basic level is to live and at a higher level is again just going back to feeling free is to live and not just survive like surviving each day and Going through the trenches and have to just kind of deal with what’s happening every day. Like going above and higher than that and living and feeling free and moving about and fulfilling your purpose or just finding yourself. Whatever that looks like for you, I think that is your birthright.

Kimberly Seals Allers 

Mike what is our birthright?

Mike Washington 

Yeah, that’s a great question. And when I give it some serious thought, I really believe that. And it’s something I struggle with. I think, for black men and black fathers, I think we should dream uncontrollably. And what I mean by that is dream hard. Because like my grandfather, my dad, their parents, they made these sacrifices so we can dream as big as we want to. And I know for me, I put my dreams in check. Because I’m so used to being practical, and, you know, living in reality and everything like that, but I don’t think that’s what they wanted you know what I mean? That that my granddad could say anything to me, it probably just be like, go go, just take that chance go and do whatever you want. And my dad provides that for me. Like, I feel like I could take as many chances because I know my dad’s got my back you know what I mean? We’ll figure it out together. So and he’s got those girls backs and I got their back so their dreams should be crazy. So our birthrights I think we should just be dreaming as big as we can. And just you know, without fear and just see where it lies and where you know where you land at.

Kimberly Seals Allers

Okay, now I’m definitely crying. Thank you both for sharing your beautiful love story and your beautiful birth story. May we all live free and dream hard. 

Season Two of Birthright is funded by the California Health Care Foundation and the Commonwealth Fund. Birthright is produced by Motor City Woman Studios in Detroit, with Kimberly Seals Allers as executive producer, and Alexa Imani Spencer as researcher and assistant producer. Our music is by Dantrel Robinson and we dedicate this season in his memory. And don’t forget to subscribe to Birthright wherever you get your podcasts. Give us a rating and review if you like what you hear. Find episode notes and learn more at www.BirthrightPodcast.com. And don’t forget to like and follow the Birthright podcast YouTube page for exclusive videos and extras. Follow at @iAmKSealsAllers on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and please support our patreon account. Together, we are reclaiming our birthright, one story at a time.